NZ can lead world in renewable energy

NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

As long as the govt is a major shareholder in power generators and coal exporter, FITS will never be introduced here in NZ. They will stand to loose too much revenue (ie tax increases will be required) plus the huge expense of PV generation hardware will only make our balance of payments worse.

Stop sending our coal to china if you want to lower emissions. Yeah right.

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

I agree 100% and have been saying the exact same thing. Over the years I've written to many ministers, (one of those with the help of Charmaine Watts, SEANZ), asking why is New Zealand lagging so far behind the rest of the world when it come to grid tie renewables, tax incentives for and a non-monopoly policy approach on energy generation all to no avail!
I have even referred ministers to the Government Policy Statement on electricity Governance (GPS)
for the Electricity Commission.
That is.

Consistent with those principal objectives, the Commission is required by the Act to seek to achieve the following specific outcomes:

d. incentives for investment in generation, transmission, lines, energy efficiency, and demand-side management are maintained or enhanced and do not discriminate between public and private investment

g. the electricity sector contributes to achieving the Government's climate change objectives by minimising unnecessary hydro spill, efficiently managing transmission and distribution losses and constraints, promoting demand-side management and energy efficiency, and removing barriers to investment in new generation technologies, renewables and distributed generation.

As the previous anonymous post points out, I feel it got a lot to do with their share / stake in the energy industry. After all why would they want to when they can build another dam and charge even more for power. They stand to lose too much.

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

There are many NZers that feel as you do, which is the reason REFIT-NZ has launched this national campaign.

To bring about change in the NZ power industry will require the collective force of New Zealanders demanding it and by providing empirical evidence proving that this is the right thing for NZ.

These are the aims of REFIT-NZ, so we encourage you to register as a supporter for free at https://refit.org.nz/support-fits/become-a-supporter (if you haven't done so already) and to spread the word. Obviously this campaign relies on a mass show of support.

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

The FIT principle is proven in a similar profile country like Switzerland but we should have the physical advantage of greater isolation and an inherent 'do it yourself' attitude.

To bring more of the 'non green' population with you, I suggest you go easy on the rhetoric such as “Speeding up the reduction of direct and indirect CO2 emissions” and never mention that you might be able to take advantage of ‘carbon credits’ or that you would support a ‘carbon trading scheme’ (scam).

For sceptics like me, those unproven claims and tax grab methods are a real turn off.
I support your drive to renewable energy for NZ.
Rex

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Thanks for that Rex.

REFIT-NZ is certainly not focusing primarily on the "green" population but all NZers, so thanks for your constructive feedback, keep it coming!

The benefits of FITs are many and varied, and certainly not restricted to only those that choose to generate their own renewable electricity. It's important too for businesses and organisations to understand the potential positive impacts it can have for them (ie. it's not just about individual households putting solar panels on their roof), the impacts are much wider than that.

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Hi Rex, by the latest statistics more New Zealander's are keen to do something about man made climate change and environmental degredation. I don't think expressing environmental benefits is a 'turn-off' for anyone.

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Hey, I'm ordering a copy of Gareth Morgan's book to read and will then return to debate this topic a bit more.

http://www.fishpond.co.nz/product_info.php?ref=449&products_id=13259974&affiliate_banner_id=1

Rex, perhaps you could read this too? And we could then discuss here in the forums.

Cheers

Ecobob

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Hello Anon,
My ecologically minded friends and my own son, are very uneasy about the way our world is heading and are numbered in those statistics.

I know them to be concerned, intelligent, thinking people but they confuse environmental degradation with CO2 induced warming and lump them both together as undesirable. I do not agree that CO2 is harmful.

I support you 100% in eliminating harmful pollution from NO and SO2 gasses belching out of Chinese coal fired smoke stacks. However, I and many of my other friends are turned off by emotive unsubstantiated CO2 claims.

FIT need both groups - this is why I suggested that FIT can do without the CO2 claim, as their concept is sound enough to stand on its principle merits.

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Hello again Bob,
I would like to debate (always in a civilized manner) the claims in Gareth’s book.
Please excuse me for not wishing to buy it as I have already found the preliminary excerpts to be emotive and scientifically inaccurate. I do not wish to spend more money on a NZ version of AL Gore's book (which I shudder at the inaccuracies, every time I read) but would be keen to borrow from the library.

May I please offer you a challenge -

I promise to read Gareths book if you promise to read a counter view - 'Heaven+earth' by Professor Ian Plimer, issued last month (fourth reprint already), but be prepared for a summary from 7000+ scientists and researchers referencing 2168 peer reviewed papers.
I wonder how this stacks up against Gareth’s 10 ‘warmist’ experts and 10 ‘sceptic’ experts.
We will wait and see.
Regards - Rex

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Hi Rex,

Sounds good. I'll start with Gareth Morgan's book and then Ian Plimer's. After that we can have a good, open and of course civilized debate.

Look forward to it.

Ecobob

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Hello Bob,
Agreed - we will talk again in two weeks. Anyway, my wife has banned me from the computer until then. Daughter has been removed from the clutches of Microsoft to fly to NZ for her wedding next week at Waiheke, so talk later.
Regards - Rex

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

It isn't CO2 that we should all be worrying about, its the massive amount of methane that will be and is being produced by melting of permafrost areas on the globe, just read the recent issues of New Scientist magazine to find out about this very worrying trend. It has the potential to dwarf the CO2 issue completely, then heaven help us all.

Mike S

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Mr REFIT-NZ, no idea what your name is, sorry.

I trust you are aware of and have put in a submission?

Public consultation on the proposed national policy statement on renewable electricity generation
http://www.mfe.govt.nz/rma/central/nps/electricity-generation.html

Re Co2 / Carbon emissions debate.
Irrespective of what happens it will end up costing us (New Zealand) either way. To back out now will come at some cost to the country, to carry on will come at some cost to the country too..

We all know Mr Keys put the brakes on the previous Governments ETS scheme and it's go date, so the new government could tweak (re-hash) it to suit business.
What grates me about the whole thing is the average joe will have to pay, yet the transport sector has a mandatory stand down period, this is one of a hand full of industries that have a non compliance period.

Either way (like it or lump it) it's coming, the IRD is starting to gear up for it already..
http://taxpolicy.ird.govt.nz/publications/files/html/carbontax/c3.html

My fear is it will cost the average Joe more just to live and what grates me even when we fail the first commitment period (the five years from 2008 to 2012) we're in it now and it doesn't look good so far...
We are currently 23% higher than we should be.
source: http://theyworkforyou.co.nz/portfolios/climate_change/2009/apr/28/kyoto_protocol

I'm not a word smith as you can tell but I hope you get the general idea. Sorry too for the long post.

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

I am curious, just who receives all the tax revenue as a result of the carbon tax for Kyoto Protocol.

World wide is will be billions of dollars, so who is on the receiving end of this money and just what is it going to be used for.

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

I thought that the idea was to use it for encouraging sustainable energy? I would assume that the nations that create the most climate changing pollution would subsidise climate friendly power generatin schemes thus increasing the uptake and making them more viable.

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

So who benefits from the Kyoto Protocol?

Under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) it all boils down to countries that can afford it (industrialised countries) bare the cost of countries that cannot afford to cut back on emissions levels.

To learn more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol

The Kyoto Protocol
http://unfccc.int/kyoto_protocol/items/2830.php

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

2008 ~2012, First compliance peiod It's an date.
Currently our shortfall is around 36 million tons from our target "to keep emission at a set percentage above 1990 levels" In dollar terms anywhere from $500 million to $1.2 billion.

We have limited capacity to reduce emission in NZ because nearly 50% of our emissions are from agriculture, (belching livestock) and 20% of our emissions are from transport. That is a massive 70% of our emissions coming from two sectors where there are no easy answers or near term emission reduction opportunities in a growing economy – apart from reducing livestock numbers or cars on the road.

IT really grates me however as the government has given those two sectors a mandatory stand down period (they don't have to comply) to 2025 or somewhere around that date.
So who pays? you and I do, the average Joe and their children when they grow up!
In the meanwhile Mr Farmer and Mr Truckie can carry on, business as usual so to speak.

Interesting article on exactly what i just said above.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC0507/S00028.htm

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

So what does the NZ govt do with this eco tax. ??

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Hey Rex, I can see the MOTIVE for those denying climage change as per this article in the UK Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/may/12/us-climate-bill-oil-gas

"America's oil, gas and coal industry has increased its lobbying budget by 50%, with key players spending $44.5m in the first three months of this year in an intense effort to cut off support for Barack Obama's plan to build a clean energy economy.

The spoiler campaign runs to hundreds of millions of dollars and involves industry front groups, lobbying firms, television, print and radio advertising, and donations to pivotal members of Congress. Its intention is to water down or kill off plans by the Democratic leadership to pass "cap and trade" legislation this year, which would place limits on greenhouse gas emissions.

A defeat for the bill would have global consequences. The international community is depending on America, as the world's biggest per capita polluter, to set out a firm plan for getting off dirty fuels in the months before crucial UN negotiations in Copenhagen in December.

Without such action, the chances of getting a deal that scientists say is vital to limiting dangerous climate change are much reduced.

Those high stakes have intensified the fight for control over America's energy future. "There are an awful lot of people who have an awful lot to gain and lose and they have been acting accordingly," said Evan Tracey, founder of the Campaign Media Analysis Group (CMAG), who has tracked the proliferation of climate change ads.

But it is an unequal contest. Liberal and environmental organisations, as well as the major corporations that support climate change legislation, say they are being vastly outspent by fossil fuel interests.

"These guys are spending a billion dollars this year convincing Americans that they are clean, green, cuddly and warm," said Bob Perkowitz, founder of the eco- America PR firm. Perkowitz is to brief the White House yesterday on a new environmental messaging strategy. "The enviros are getting their message out, but they are being outspent by 10 to one." he said.On advertising, the ratio is about three to one. The oil and coal industry spent $76.1m on ads from 1 January to 27 April, according to CMAG data seen by the Guardian. Environmental groups, led by Al Gore's Alliance for Climate Protection, the Environmental Defence Fund and the Sierra Club, spent $28.6m on ads in the same period, Tracey said.

Despite its global significance, the fate of the draft "cap and trade" bill now lies in the hands of just a dozen Democrats, who have yet to back Obama's energy transformation. The Democratic leadership cannot take their support for granted. Seven of those pivotal Democrats received campaign donations in excess of $100,000 from the oil and gas industry, coal producers, and electricity firms during last year's elections, according to an analysis provided to the Guardian by the Centre for Responsive Politics. Another two received more than $90,000 last year.

Environmentalists say those Democrats, who hold the balance of power on the committee, pose a far greater threat to the chances of passing climate change legislation than a full vote in the House of Representatives. "If they can get that bill through the subcommittee what is going to emerge is a piece of legislation," said Tony Kreindler of the Environmental Defence Fund. "So this is ground zero for the vote."

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Hello Anon.
My wife has instructed me 'no global warming' discussion until after the wedding'. So this is a very quick abbreviated answer. DON'T TELL HER.
I don't care who funds true scientific knowledge be they a "greenie' or an 'oil baron' – all they have to do is propose a hypothesis, go out of the laboratory into the field, take actual measurements, and have their thesis published then peer reviewed and finally accepted.
ANY other method is propaganda and or politics from either a ‘warmist’ or a ‘sceptics’ point of view – it is NOT science. I am interested only in verifiable, repeatable science.
As for the amount of money spent, it is completely irrelevant unless it is for propaganda or political gain and I despise both.
Just as an aside, almost all the western world governments supporting the AGW philosophy are funding their government organizations such as NASA or NIWA or GISS or Etc Etc.
Have you checked how much that amounts to annually – you can find it on the Web and it is hundreds of millions more than all the sceptics groups combined. Check it out

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Hi Andrew,

Yes we were aware of the public consultation process for the proposed national policy statement on renewable electricity generation.

Unfortunately the submission deadline ended before REFIT-NZ came into being. However, as it seems the deadline has also been extended a few times, we are currently making inquiries as to whether there may be another opportunity for REFIT-NZ to make a submission.

Thanks,
Anthea, Trustee

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

I don't really know too much about all this honestly I don't, but like most others I'm trying to get up to speed on it, understand it and any future consequences that may affect me or my children. (it's not looking good so far)

My points of view are irrelevant now, we're screwed because we ratified it!

I'll offer up what I know so far...

So what does the NZ govt do with this eco tax. ??

The same as the other countries that have ratified the Kyoto agreement, if we or they fail to meet the targets that were set for emission reductions after the first compliance period then we're all in the same boat, ya pay!
The exact amount depends on what the going rate per ton is for emission at that time.

To answer your question where does it go...

It goes to United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UN money pit) to be given out to countries who cannot afford to stop de-forestation, who cannot afford to change or stop adding to the problem by creating millions of tons of emissions that affect the global climate, generally slowing them down or stopping them by paying them.
Yes it's a hard pill to swallow but our government has committed us to it.

Reality is we are now bound by international law to this massive pending cost we can ill afford and to be honest I doubt the World can right now too.

I don't know all the answers but I'm worried.
I've got a lot of questions like most others but have no idea who to ask.
Where to from here?
Do we see a future Petrol carbon emission tax? or a carbon e tax on k's travelled?
Do we see a wood / coal carbon e tax?
If I planted 10 trees on my property would I or my children benefit from this in some credit?
Too many questions but few know where to go, even ministers can't answer them, hell I've tryed!

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Dammit this web site pisses me off sometimes.
I was signed in at the time and posted the above, yet it posted it as anonymous, go figure!

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

It goes to United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UN money pit)......

Thats not going to help anything, it should go towards measures that mitigate the problem in the source country. Sounds daft sending the money out of the country.

Re: NZ can lead world in renewable energy 

Hello from 'sceptic' (not ‘anon’. - system has temporarily frozen me out)

It’s even worst than you imagine.
The Labour Government ratified Kyoto smugly thinking that our vast green forests were going to give us a ‘carbon credit’ windfall which we would sell to offset Russian ‘carbon debits’ and make money at $50 / ton.
They got their decimal point in the wrong place in the calculations – hence NZ ended up with a ‘carbon debit’ account instead.
At the time, Russia had a booming economy, which has now crashed, and so now their carbon limit which was set in that earlier period, gives then credits to sell and we will have to buy them to offset our debits.
$3000 per annum of each NZ householder’s money will now go to Russia.

It gets is even worse.
‘Carbon credits’ sale and purchase does absolutely nothing to offset real pollution, like the SO2 haze over Auckland that kills 600 NZ / year. This ‘forced ‘tax’ only supposedly controls carbon, not any real pollution, and Kyoto estimates that we may achieve a tiny 0.4 degree C world temperature reduction if ALL Countries implemented the Kyoto principle.

Now do you understand why a ‘greenie’ like ‘sceptic’ is so opposed to trying to control ‘carbon’ the third most abundant element (humans are 18.5% carbon) and essential to every form of organic life on this planet?

Rex