A Woodland Home (UK)

listed by Ecobob.co.nz

Building permits ?? 

Eion, Fred, Ian, Carsten, Richard (x2), Ella, Christina, other NZ council Eco Design Advisors,
How would your respective council building permit teams and building inspectors deal with someone wanting to do this in NZ?
No drawings, engineering calculations (add more bits of trees until it stops wobbling?) or producer statements.
Fabulous.
regards
Russell

Re: Building permits ?? 

No worries, as long as it's located in France we'd be quite happy... (referring to Saturday's Earthship episode of Grand Designs - the French authorities apparently put all responsibility back on the builder).

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The responsibility belongs to the builder and not to the authorities.
This requires of course a proper qualification ;-)

Re: Building permits ?? 

I too, love to dream. Thanks for sharing your dream Simon – a dream you had the courage and drive to convert into reality. But a word of caution to every other ‘dreamer’ in NZ, who is thinking of following a similar path.
Regrettably, you will fail for the following reasons.

The UK is more relaxed in regulatory control for constructing a ‘crofters 16th century building’ in a rural setting – you did not mention whether you needed or maybe ignored any town planning/building regulations. You certainly could not have built this cottage in a suburban locality.

If you were to transpose this cottage into rural NZ, you would have to bridge these hurdles.

We are not called the ‘shaky isles’ for nothing – a 5.5 Richter earthquake would have that structure down on your head inside a minute. No engineer could possibly calculate restraining forces using unknown strength factors for random timber beams, let alone sign his name and take structural responsibility.

With respect, you acknowledge that you are an amateur rather than skilled builder, so would you know how to calculate and construct a lateral support wall? Likewise, no skilled builder would attempt to construct an organic structure such as this, lacking any working drawings or details of critical junctions.

Did you have any water leaks at the junction of roof and walls, heads of windows Etc? If not at first, I would warrant you would certainly have them after the first decent hurricane.

With the upcoming change to the Building Regulations, the builder, electrician, plumber Etc. would have to guarantee any long term responsibility and meet the cost of repairs – no way would they sign their names to this construction, and you as an unregistered builder would not be permitted to attempt this building.
The Local Authority Town Planner, Building Inspector and Engineer would have a collective apoplexy, so there goes any chance of a Permit.

I have designed ‘alternative’ style buildings, but always within engineering constraints which I am afraid you have ignored – still its great to dream!
Rex

Re: Building permits ?? 

You sir sorry to say in my opinion are a sad pessimistic old fool...

No wonder we don't see real revolutionary environmental changes in wider society yet. People like you make me sick with your green wash, why are you so negative about this most natural and beautiful creation?

Those laws you so rightously harp on about, are simply unessercary barriers to entry for the market. Keeping the rich rich and poor poorer. Humans have a fundamental right to be able to live sustainably off this land in Aotearoa.

When a big earthquake does rock around your precious ponsy structures will crumble as well but cause far more devastating effects to the wider community.

I congratulate Simon and his family on this most inspiring and exciting new way of life I have ever seen. I cant wait to recreate my own, with or without building consent. Its time we made a stand and create a life for ourselves we really believe in so we can all live in peace. Rex... time to get back to your roots.
Stanz

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Here here! I agree.
Mike (Architectural Designer)

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Hey you two - don't shoot the messenger just because you don't like the controlled environment in which we have to operate! Did I say that I liked the limiting rules? No I did not.

This post was about if you could get a 'building permit' on such an extraordinary structure and the answer in NO, NO and NO.

I thought that I said I greatly admired Simon's endeavour but sadly no one attempting such a building in NZ could succeed, and I am completely right.

So anon 5.02pm you just go ahead and build your structure without a building permit and see how long it takes the Local Authority to make you tear it down.

What a stupid waste of time and money. Get real!

Rex (also an Architectural Designer who obviously known the 'rules')

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I agree too - well done to a beautiful home, I am truly envious, just have to get there.

I live in South Africa, where there is a dire shortage of "homes" for - the majority of the population, who live in their own make shift structures of corrugated iron, wood, black plastic bags etc... If the government would put their money into teaching these people how to eco build - they will most definately live in a more secure and wonderful home.

I believe too, that a home with soul such as an eco home, would also change the hearts of many who live in these desolate shaks - that are souless and unsafe.

Re: Building permits ?? 

Of course Rex is correct and obviously knows the regulations. He is taking the time to add to the thread so good on him for his honesty.

None of us really likes to be constrained, but I guess we need some guidelines, otherwise buying a house would be even more of a nightmare than at present, where it is wise to get a building report before you buy so that you are not buying someone elses experiment gone wrong.

Thanks Salvador for your input to remind us of how truely blessed we are in this country regulations or not. We also have people in poor living conditions, poverty is so cruel as children don't know any better.

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Thank you for your support Enviopal but I cannot resist taking a ‘swipe’ at the stupid statement made by 'anon 5.02pm.'

NZ leads the world in earthquake design and produces
people like my friend Professor Ian Buckle who heads the world Earthquake Commission.

Back in 1978, I worked with Government on developing the new building code NZS3604 and we had a chance to test the strength of this code during the 1987 Edgecumbe earthquake of magnitude 6.3.

I had designed a range of standard homes for Keith Hay (the design is still valid and in use today) and I inspected the damage to the Keith Hay homes after this earthquake.
The joins in the Gib. Bd. each side of the window lintels were cracked, leading to a code design change running the Gib. board over this weak point. A window in the kitchen was broken by a tin of baked beans being thrown from the wall cupboard though the window and that was the extent of the damage.

However, the older pre code ‘Ministry of Jerks’ houses adjacent, with conventional foundations, had the piles collapsed and the houses flat on the ground, proving the strength of the (current) NZS3604 code.

Very impressive 'anon 5.02pm', and something you should have known before exposing your ignorance to all of us in your post.

Rex

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This post was adressed to anon but should also include and be more applicable to 'Stanz"

Rex

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Less is more, you just wait.
When the paper war takes a tumble which it will, things will be more in balance, not saying we should ignore engineers or the like, but the red tape is so out of order and the restrictions rediculous. We are programmed to build our houses a certain way which always comes with morgage noose around our necks. Every person in this world has a right to be able to construct their own shelter, with a little help from people in right places. Generally owner builders make very well constructed homes.
If you have a 'dream' and are really excited about what ever it is you will get it done no matter what.
Rex, never, never put a human being down by saying that they will 'fail' if you are a dreamer in NZ or anywhere for that matter.
Yes i don't like the limiting rules either, but theres always ways around everthing.
For example, take the 'earthship' concept, alternative yes, but designed right can withstand earthquakes and anything thrown at it. Using old car tyres rammed with clay, sand or gravel and plastered over, simple, free building blocks, and something that can be owner built without or very little morgage. There has already been one built just outside Hamilton, with a PERMIT!!
If there wasn't dreamers out there this world would certainly be a very sad place indeed.
Mike

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Hello Mike,

Please re-read what I actually said.

It may surprise you to know that I agree with almost everything you just stated.
I have been a bit of a rebel in taking on building inspectors / town planners Etc and educating them in alternatives such as a draped hessian spayed concrete roof on a rammed earth wall house in Whangarei to a patent on an economical construction R4 insulated panel house.

The only point of disagreement with you, is that I ‘did not put down a dreamer’ – I said I agreed with being a dreamer as I am one myself but dreams have to be tempered with a large slice of reality and ‘dreamers’ will NOT get a permit on this house which is what was asked in the question.

Good luck with a different dream - dreams that are relentlessly pursued usually become a reality.
Rex

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Rex, Glad to see the brains cells are back in operation,
TC

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Hello again TC - the chemo fiinishes tommorrow - now the operations start. - Thanks for your thoughts.
Rex

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Hi Rex, good luck from the team at Ecobob. Sincerly hope all goes well!

Carlin

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Hello Carlin,

Thank you for your kind thoughts experessed even though as moderator, I must stretch your tolerance at times.
I like to challenge the thinking people following Ecobob - by far the best site I have found for gleaning high quality eco building information from skilled and highly qualified contributors.

Thanks again - Rex

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That´s a gorgeous home. I Would love to live in one like that - and I am always get jealous to see such an accomplishment. Unfortunately, we had such a lot of hassles with the council, that we gave up a lot of our ideas. How sad. Alone the leaky house syndrome makes the councils go crazy. Not to mention the "necesarry" highly trated wood for poles f. ex. We are still buiding and the inspections from council make me sick before they come. We know a number of people who gave up to have their final inspections done, or even buid secretly in the bush, but later on, without those papers it is difficult to sell - if necessary. We once wanted to sell a lovely small eco house near Wellington by the sea and the people in New Zealand did not appreciate it. There are not many people who are into eco buildings. If it comes to the point, they want to have their standard NZ home. It all sounds pessimistic, but we unfortunately had a lot of disappointments.

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People are always cautious (if not downright scared) of something they are not familiar with. Unfortunately, because NZers move houses a lot, this means many homes are built considering only the resale, not the people using it.

Unfortunately, sometimes people assessing Building Consents are rather closed-minded too, so those who are keen to try something different get the brick wall treatment. The problem is that so much of our construction is done in only one way that different methods are just about unknown and therefore scary, and it can be hard for people to know who really has the knowledge they claim.

I am all for high standards for thermal, structural, and weathertightness. We have seen the results of blasé attitudes to some of these, and the reaction was part panic and part reasoned.

We are lucky so far to not have had a major earthquake in one of our major centres since 1931. Where big quakes have hit cities around the world, there is always a shocked reaction of finding buildings that should have stood up but didn't, despite standards, because shortsighted people have "saved" and cut corners.
I do not look forward to what we will find out here. I think the main problem will be with buildings that have not complied, and some older buildings that predate better understanding of earthquake forces.

But in the meantime we can, with a bit of aggravation and persistence, ;) get what we want, most of the time, by knowing the reasons for the rules, and how and when they should apply.

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Respect due to Rex's knowledge, but maybe as others have said a more positive tone might be in order?

"You will fail"? I would imagine people told Simon that as well. But he has succeeded in so many glorious ways, if only in inspiring the rest of us.

Yes, we have different conditions here in NZ and tough regs. You may choose to ignore them and take your chances as I, as a recent UK import, would judge Simon has done in Wales. (thatroundhouse.info did it, fought for years and is still there...)

You may believe it's better to live one day as a lion, than 1,000 years as a lamb.

Thanks for your diligent posting Rex, I may not agree with all of it, but I am always interested to learn.

All the best for a healthy recovery.

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It may appear from my posts that I am a pessimist but those who know, describe me as an incurable optimist who has broken just about every boundary placed in his way.

Let me express my concerns and explain WHY I said “you will fail”.

When I was a potter / kiln manufacturer, the NZ Potters Society held a symposium of 700 potters to learn kiln manufacturing from the ‘best in the world’, Frank Colsen from the USA.
After listening to his advice for 15 minutes I became angry at the miss-information being taught, and recognised that we in NZ, were many years ahead of the USA in our knowledge – we just did not know it until then.

You see, NZ’s are No.8 ‘fencing wire’ innovators and can improve on anything the world produces (prompting me to lodge a patent). I approached the symposium committee with my concerns but they refused to act, fearing that we would offend our USA guest. The only way to get my message across, was to write articles in the NZ Potter magazine warning others not to follow Colson’s advice - but too late, many did and many potters lost a great deal of their money and time following his advice.

Regarding this woodland cottage, my concern and warning was to those with current dreams, not to blindly go down a similar path to my fellow potters, and lose all or struggle as our poster 'dreamer' has.

Let us be optimistic, maybe one day the ‘rules’ will change, providing dreamers like me and others admiring Simon’s innovation, fight against the establishment – I can assure you all, that this dreamer, has not given up!

Thanks for your thoughts andykenworthy.
Rex

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I find some of the negative comments by so called qualified people in this forum offensive to say the least. Thousands of NZ'ers are suffering from leaky homes which will cost billions to repair. These same homes were built to standards created by so called qualified people, and enforced by local and central government. NZ has some of the worst value for money housing I have seen in my travels yet we continue to follow the guidelines of a building industry that is substandard. There are other options to the poor practices used in NZ, just ask anyone faced with cleaning up after the bureaucrats, engineers, and proffesional builders. Until our building industry show some vision, and NZ homeowners start demanding more of their architects and builders, our houses will continue to be bland, unimaginative poorly constructed shoeboxes. It is great to see some people don't want to accept the mediocre, and have some pride and passion in the home they want to live in.