Find products and services
View eco friendly homes or list your own eco house
Information on sustainable living
Community chat
Buy eco products

Forum Search

Keyword


Forum


Topic: Pricing on Cleanaire HRV

by JasonS 5 Jun 08, 153 replies : Last Post Sort by:
If you would like to receive email alerts when a reply is posted to this forum thread check this check box
This forum thread has been marked as a question and has yet to have an accepted answer. You can earn 'Eco Points' by answering other Ecobob user's forum questions.

Author Post

3 posts
This forum thread has been marked as a question for other Ecobob users to answer. Pricing on Cleanaire HRV 
Posted 5 Jun 08 8:51 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and relatively new to NZ, arriving from the US in January. This is our first winter and we're finding our house a too damp for our liking.

We started investigating the HRV systems and came upon the cleanaire system. We like the idea of a true heat exchanger as opposed to what HRV and the likes use. With a wood burner as our only non-electric heat source the idea of using an actual heat exchanger to preserve as much of our heat "investment" seemed to make sense, along with the benefit of using cleaner outdoor air instead of dusty attic air.

Our house size is about 224 m2, 4 bedrooms, 2 bath, kitchen and lounge. We were given an estimate over the phone for about $5600 before he could come out to the house.

The quote we received was for almost $7K for the system. That was quite a substantial jump in price and it has me wondering why. I've asked that question of the company, but also wonder if anyone else here has had this system installed and approximately how much it cost to install. If you have had the product installed, are you happy with it?

Thanks
Jason


3840 posts
Re: Pricing on Cleanaire HRV 
Posted 6 Jun 08 9:27 AM
Suggest you also investigate the SmartVent synergy system which is probably equally good but not as expensive.

3 posts
Re: Pricing on Cleanaire HRV 
Posted 6 Jun 08 6:57 PM
I'd heard that system was going to run about $10K. If it is indeed cheaper, than I'm all for it!

Thanks
Jason

12 posts
Re: Pricing on Cleanaire HRV 
Posted 6 Jun 08 11:55 PM
The Smartvent does have a plastic heat exchanger which in NZ conditions in my opinion have a somewhat limited life before it becomes brittle and in need of replacement-My motto has always been to KISS keep it simple "st***d" and the synergy is a bit fancy pantsfor me.Has the right principal though.
The fans and electrical gear might be expensive to repair in five years time if they are even still available..I used to install the Avon HRV as well as other systems and the Cleanaire version is the best I ever put in.I have read the info on the smartent and I dont know if the fan or heat exchangers are up to doing a larger home.
Suggest you talk to this company about the price or modify the system to fit your budget??Perhaps find out if there are other installers in the city to get two quotes??

3 posts
Re: Pricing on Cleanaire HRV 
Posted 7 Jun 08 9:03 PM
Thanks RG. Yes the Synergy does look a bit flash, and as cool as a touch screen system would be, it's definitely not necessary either. The Cleanaire does seem to be the best solution out there. I just saw an ad for a Mitsubishi product that seems to be about 60% efficient in the exchanger core, which is substantially less than the 90% efficiency of the Cleanaire or Synergy.

We talked to Cleanaire/Avon directly and they referred us to one installer. Maybe another call to see if there is someone else is in order.

You didn't indicate whether you thought the price was out of line or not. Any comment on that aspect?

Thanks again

12 posts
Re: Pricing on Cleanaire HRV 
Posted 8 Jun 08 11:28 AM
Youre welcolme. Cost depends on difficulty of the job remember the DVS and HRV systems use cheaper non insulated ducting but the heat excanger units use a insulated version.hy not ask for a cost breakdown to see where the price is loaded?
The Mitsubishi lossnay is a ERV not a HRV and uses a paper heat exchanger that actually allows moisture to also be exchanged between the air flows this is not desireable when attempting to control condensation the metal plate heat exchangers are better for NZ.I would be suprised if the lossnay is even 70%.Try a internet search for ERV vs HRV for a better description.
Good luck

3840 posts
Re: Pricing on Cleanaire HRV 
Posted 12 Jun 08 2:10 PM
Hi Jason,

I too migrated here 4 years ago and unfortunately Kiwi housing design leaves a lot to be desired. Even as wee speak houses are being built that will suffer from poor ventilation that will cause dampness and mould and lead to sick building syndromLike you I am looking at systems to cure this endemic problem and have found thus far that no one system does it all at an affordable price! My current preffered system is as follows. We have a wood burner as our non electric heat source but the heat stays in one place pretty much, so we will be using a heat transfer system, thermal and acoustic lagging, with an electronic baffle to switch between drawing 70% air from our heated room and transfering this to 6 outlets and 30% filtered make up air from the roof cavity. This introduces fresh air and slightly pressurises the living environment driving out moisture but at the expense of losoing some heat. In addition to this we will either install a heat pump or a small in line heater to cope with cold mornings! Have a look at the Drivaire system which uses the above principle! Good luck


1 posts
Re: Pricing on Cleanaire HRV 
Posted 24 Jun 08 1:05 PM
We have just recently installed the Cleanaire system. We noticed a change straight away, mainly that the air temperature throughout the house was more even. We now have very little condensation but still a mist around the bottom of the windows in the bedrooms (we used to have water dripping off the windows and joinery). The cost to install was $6000 for a 4 bed, 2 bath home with 3 living areas. I would recommend that oyu get the installation checked by the company manager to ensure that it is up to spec. We have just discovered a major leak in our system which is getting repaired tomorrow. The person that installed the system was a bit shoddy on sealing up the system. Apart from that we are very pleased with the system.

3 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 26 Jun 08 3:07 PM
Hey all just came across this thread... we have done a lot of investigation on True HRV and Air to Air Heat Exchangers... we finally selected Intelivent, after looking around at the above brands and from northern hemisphere learning’s. I too lived in the UK and US and Germany for a short while.

Quite frankly the results with Intelivent were fantastic!
No condensation from the day it was installed and 6-7 degree temperature gains in the coldest part of the house - plus the need to dust has notable reduced, must be the continual air replacements during the day exhausting it from the building?

Our price was around the $4,000 mark for the whole house installed with a 4 year guarantee. We went with Intelivent not because it was the cheapest but three reasons:

1- It had the best heat exchanger efficiency around 90%!! Highest I have seen.

2- Also its NZ designed and manufactured so “local support”, but more importantly it’s supposedly designed for NZ climate rather than northern hemisphere environments where the humidity can be a lot lower.

3- The controller is not as wizzy and flashy as the other ones we looked at but our interest was to simply set it then not worry about it. And from the temp sensors it all automatically runs itself.

Hope you find what suits you and your house, but may pay to check them out. GOOD LUCK

6 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 1 Jul 08 8:47 PM
Hi guys, great info here, thanks for sharing. I'm trying to work out what to do to make my house warmer and most importantly drier. I'm asthmatic and notice a huge difference particularly in the allergy side come winter. Even autumn. I started off with the idea of dvs or similar, now prefer the idea of moisture master with the air warmed on its way in. But I do struggle with taking air from the roof and whether this is clean. Also, it's been suggested that these 'forced air' systems can sometimes force air out and cause problems in cavities. Does anyone have a great result with either of these two systems.
Ultimately, I think I prefer the idea of a true heat exchanger taking air from outside. But I don't have a big heat source indoors, no heat pump, no fire. Only plug in electric heaters. Really interested to read about Intelivent. Had not seen this one. Impressive ambient rise but do you have a big heat source? I will get them round anyway. Feel at this rate winter will be over by the time I have decided!

Thanks again, any info along the hrv lines is really interesting.

6 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 1 Jul 08 8:48 PM
Hi guys, great info here, thanks for sharing. I'm trying to work out what to do to make my house warmer and most importantly drier. I'm asthmatic and notice a huge difference particularly in the allergy side come winter. Even autumn. I started off with the idea of dvs or similar, now prefer the idea of moisture master with the air warmed on its way in. But I do struggle with taking air from the roof and whether this is clean. Also, it's been suggested that these 'forced air' systems can sometimes force air out and cause problems in cavities. Does anyone have a great result with either of these two systems.
Ultimately, I think I prefer the idea of a true heat exchanger taking air from outside. But I don't have a big heat source indoors, no heat pump, no fire. Only plug in electric heaters. Really interested to read about Intelivent. Had not seen this one. Impressive ambient rise but do you have a big heat source? I will get them round anyway. Feel at this rate winter will be over by the time I have decided!

Thanks again, any info along the hrv lines is really interesting.

3840 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 2 Jul 08 5:44 PM
Hi
I have been doing alot of looking into DVS,HRV etc and too have just purchased an intelivent system. The reason being that down here in the far south we would need to be running the inline duct heater on DVS and this would prove to be rather expensive to run for any considerable time. The intelivent however I should point out sources air from the roof space as per DVS etc, this is the only difference between it and the likes of the Lossnay and Cleanaire HRV who take air from the outside. We have a heatpump and it is hoped that we will achieve some heat recovery from that, we only want to take the chill off the front of the house and it wont cost a cent as its recovered heat, also should reduce the condensation problem. because it has exhaust and supply diffuser you have a balanced ventilation.
I hope to have it installed in the next couple of weeks so will let you know how i get on. All up our system cost $3270 (uninstalled), considering that DVS were going to charge me $3,400 (installed) i think I will soon recoup any costs associated with installling it myself and not running a 2kw duct heater to keep the air temp up. The best thing that it is a counter flow exchanger, these are supposed to be more efficient than the crossflow(lossnay, cleanaire type) and it was developed by Kiwis for our conditons. They also provide a great service with designing the right airflow for your house.
The Southland conditions will certainly put it to the test!!


3 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 3 Jul 08 4:51 PM
Hi ya me again

The Ambient Rise was due only from the solar heat from the ceiling - the cold room was around 13 degrees on a winters days and the other "fine" day (ya need the sun) it raised the cold room to 19/20 degrees and was still that at 430pm...

I am unsure how much rise we are getting in the evening - we have a log burner which is pretty inefficient but the temp in the cold room (which is a miserable end of the house) is any where around the 17-19degrees when the systems going - and dry.

One thing brought to my attention is that we are going through less fire wood - we use to go through a basket a night throwing the remaining logs from the basket in the fire when going to bed - however there’s been a collecting of wood left over each night as the remaining logs all wont fit in the fire at the end of the night - I guess we are either using less or the wood is different? -

will keep an eye on it...

I just cant understand why people would want forced air systems- its seems logical that if your only forcing air into a room then it has to be going somewhere... and its likely to be going out of the door and windows cracks and open doors etc... so if air is escaping then isn’t heat as well?


6 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 4 Jul 08 12:22 AM
Thanks again guys for your posts. After 6 weeks of what seems like procrastination but is an effort to get it right, I feel like I'm getting closer to a decision. Have the Intelivent guys quoting me on Saturday and really excited after reading their brochure. Was marginally disappointed to see the air comes from the roof space as with forced air as I've read on other sights questionable as to how clean or fresh this is. And interesting that there is legislation preventing using roofspace air in Europe and other countries (NZ is sure to catch up so will those systems be redundant in 5 years or less?).
However, taking roofspace air does use that heat up there and as it's a heat exchanger, presumably even if it was the daytime it was nice and sunny and it drops later, because it keeps extracting the heat there will still be some benefit in the evening. Also great it is not 'forced'. It's not just heat loss to worry about when this air is 'forced' out of the house. I've read that because it's forced moisture laden air can find its way into cavities etc causing unseen issues. That seemed to make sense. Plus loving the NZ developed NZ made and energy efficiency. I had almost signed up with Moisture Master with heater and recycler - but this looks better.

So looking forward to Intelivent meeting. Will let you know how I get on if I get it installed.

Could you let me know what they quoted with installation? I am not remotely handy! I only have a 100 sqm home.

6 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 4 Jul 08 12:31 AM
Apologies for repeating myself in places.
Ecoeco, thanks for the info re temp rises non heated - very hopeful. That's interesting re your wood, is it a modern log burner. I don't know anything about them but it's almost as if it's not having to work so hard, perhaps it's affected by the heat retention in the room - intriguing.

3840 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 4 Jul 08 2:07 PM
Their is no reason why the system couldnt source the air direct from outside, this would just a simple task of installing an outside vent and re routing the ducting if this was to become a code requirement down the track. The beauty of these systems is that you can have it running 24/7 without worrying about it slowing down (or stopping) if the incoming air is too cold like the forced air systems do.
I think the cost of installing is around $700.All dependant on how many diffusers are put in I believe.The only reason Im doing it myself is that they dont have an installer down here at the moment.
I think that these systems will soon become rather popular and wouldnt at all be surprised to see the likes of HRV, DVS etc going down the heat exchanger track in the future...I did also look at the new Mitshibushi Lossnay system ($4,200 installed) but apparently has about 52% heat recovery efficiency so the Mitsi man told me.


3840 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 4 Jul 08 5:42 PM
Good afternoon - as a matter to consider with the Heat Recovery system mentioned that takes air from the ceiling I would like to raise some points for discussion.

If your house was lets say around 300 cubic meters and the roof space 100m3 and you were replacing the air in your home once every hour (I am trying to use simple figures - UK standard is once every 2 hours). Then one would expect that every 20mins the roof space air is also being replaced.

If the attic air is not being replaced by air from another source then surely the roof would collapse. Like taking the air out of an automobile tyre!

It seems logical to me that in fact after the initial 20mins that attic air would be replaced by outside (so called fresh) air anyway.

I think those that are marketing "don’t breath the roof space air" perhaps need to consider that in fact the attic space is becoming a low pressure area and is very very quickly going to be equalised (as nature so kindly does) by fresh out door air, accessing the space through the soffits!

The roofing structure has a high thermal mass and when paired with your (sometimes destructive) NZ solar climate - one would be mad not to try and recover any "free" heat that’s with in meters of them.

Another point which may be of interest is filtration - I am sure that any reputable ventilation company can provide advice and products on various filtration - F7 (fine) is perhaps the highest level to consider (you can get higher but balancing filtration with volume airflow is a factor).

I think a high grade filter is a must attic or other wise, however, I would argue that a duct accessing the outside directly, would have a air higher pressure (suction) than fresh air coming in via the soffits. Simply due to the vented area being a 200mm access point, rather than air entering via possibly 100meters of soffit.

If this is the case then like your household Hoover when you change the vacuum nozzle to be smaller, the pressure is more significant, the result is you can suck up large debris as big as a penny coin - if the nozzle is larger (like air entering though the soffits) then the pressure is lower, you can suck up only very small objects.

In this example the soffit acts somewhat as an additional barrier –

I would rather be gentling drawing in air from the soffits than drawing in air aggressively though an external vent when the lawn mower man drives over doggy muck, or a prevailing wind blows fertiliser from a neighbouring field...

I intend to call Intelivent and see if this has also been a consideration with their approach to ventilation - I see their heat recovery is very high which did seem a significant claim - however I also see its uses a counter flow principle (or Countercurrent) which has a maximum theoretical exchange of 100%

See this link for details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countercurrent_exchange

Every other Air to Air Heat Exchanger I have seen is that of a CROSSFlow physics principle that has a maximum theoretical exchange of 75%...

It’s a no brainer what principle or approach is better.

I would be interested in others thoughts to my comments -

6 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 5 Jul 08 3:27 PM
Having seen the Intellivent brochure and having the guy round this morning I feel I have finally made my decision after umming and ahhing forever over the forced air system. I didn't do it cos something wasn't quite right.
Now I'm happy! Intellivent just seems so intelligent - it's a balanced ventilation system which actually achieves proper air exchange as opposed to the pressurised environment with other systems. It has a vent to the outside from the roof so it is ensuring there is enough ventilation in the roofspace. On the subject of the heat exchanger it is really long - not a box like lossnay and I think this attributes to some of the extra efficiency, plus it is not paper based like lossnay. Also lossnay was built for canada apprarently where humidity is a lot less than here so it was built to achieve a different aim I guess. Intellivent is built in NZ for NZ. I have been roughly quotes 'under 4,000' and will get a proper quote when I send my floor plan, but as I said I'm only 100sq m. It has a computer and sensors so it's aim is to achieve an ambient temperature over the whole house. It's up to me to heat the house, unless I'm lucky and the sun provides the heat for me. I'm hopeful that I won't need to also buy a heat pump - I'll see how I go with the electric heaters - if it's not enough I'll buy a heat pump before next winter.

6 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 5 Jul 08 3:33 PM
Thanks anonymous and everyone, I would never have found out about these guys if it wasn't for seeing your posts. Thank goodness google spiders pick up forum posts. The intelivent guy told me that if I looked up on Wikipedia there were hundreds of user comments. I haven't found where yet but if I do I will post like here for others to read.


4 posts
Re: Pricing on Cleanaire HRV 
Posted 7 Jul 08 5:24 PM
I have to say 'snake oil'.

$7500 for some plastic pipe, some electric fans and a plastic heat exchange with a few hours labour!

No 1 eliminate all sources of moisture first. Extracts to shower and cooker, use saucepan lids, vent laundry dryer to the outside. Especially check for unflued gas appliances like heaters. get rid of them. Gas hobs oh no, way too much moisture -go induction for effciency and control.

No2 Spend that money on really good insulation levels.

No 3 Then look for radient heat sources like a wood burner, or radiators, or underfloor heating etc

Sit back and enjoy a warm damp free home knwoing your money is well spent.

ta

Ta

3840 posts
Re: Cleanaire HRV-to use or not roof air 
Posted 8 Jul 08 9:18 AM
Interesting reading the posts on weither to use or not use attic air.The NZ building code is clear on this.

NZBC 1992 requires systems to comply with NZS4303
Air for ventilation needs to be outdoor air from the external atmosphere and therfore not previously circulated through the system.

Roof air is not outdoor air. The analogy I like is that you would not drink water from a stream with a dead animal in it and yet some systems ask you to breath air passing via a poluted air space. The odours gases mould and fungi from decaying insects, birds, rats,droppings,dried urine, are proven to be detrimental to human health.As are VOC.surely eliminating this potential risk is best practice ,overseas they think so.

In the USA ventilation sytems that source air from the roofspace are not allowed see USA Standard ASHRAE 62-1989.
The USA also banned systems using this method due to significant risk in the event of a roofspace fire, ventilation systems that source roofspace air will force smoke and fire by-products into the occupied spaces of the home.

I am dubious of a comment in a earlier thread that air coming in from roofspaces comes in via a greater surface area therfore the "suction" bringing in larger particles is reduced. What are we talking about leaves and grass clippings?? I reccomend a air filter for any ventilation system to remove atmospheric dust and pollens these are small and light enough to be fully suspended even in the lightest zephyr and would not be excluded from entering a roof space by the so called "barrier".

The comment the intellivent has the most efficient heat exchanger is not quite right if you look at the avon electric Cleanaire HRV you will see the MA600-95 is 95% efficient.

Pricing depends on the extent of how much ducting and also labour cost.
Install yourself if you can they are simple to install.
Dont compromise spending a bit more on ducting in order to do the job properley ask yourself how can air change occur in every room if it does not have a flow through effect.

Very little technical information is available on some systems and that always makes me nervous about the bold claims they make.This blog is excellant in that good information is being shared and we can all make informed choices.I wish all of these companies could give up their products for independent testing or for the government to step in and rate them on the MEPS standard like they do for electrical appliances.








3840 posts
Re: Heat Exchanger - misnomer 
Posted 9 Jul 08 12:28 PM
Interesting reading, but the previous post brings up a point I would like to make around Heat Exchange.

There are various Heat Exchangers within Ventilation System offerings that appear to be making some interesting claims. Most that I have seen are CROSSFlow heat exchangers that use cross path physics principles. This includes the Cleanair product line, from what I can read from their website. The other providers such as Lossnay and Synergy/Axia appear to be CROSSflow in approach also. As the writer above I think is explaining Intelivent claims to be a COUNTERflow heat exchanger – this, by virtue its Heat Exchanger approach is a key point of difference in heat recovery.

The maximum theoretical efficiency of CROSSFlow exchange is 75.00%
The maximum theoretical efficiency of COUNTERflow exchange is 99.99%

So that begs the question why and how can a CrossFlow heat exchanger such as the Cleanaire MB600-95 (as above) claim 95% - well it’s either a typo  or what is in fact being claimed is “effectiveness”.

WARNING – if it is indeed effectiveness, then what you’re looking at with a CROSSFlow system rated at 95% “effective” at a maximum possible efficiency of 75%

ITS ACTUAL efficiency is only 71.25%

I think there is either a genuine mistake here in the Cleanaire claim; or some blatant misleading going on.

A colleague of mine here in Wellington has got hold of an Intelivent laboratory test report over a year ago, needing it for a building project being worked on – his comments were that the tests were done independently by an engineering technology organisation; and the results were at 88-89% efficiency. Be interesting if this report was available for the general perusal and / or there has been any improvement on this?

On the attic air issue – healthy discussion from all, but no one has thought about giving their roof space and good clean and vacuum :) - not my area, so thanks for all the info…


3840 posts
Re: Pricing on Cleanaire HRV 
Posted 9 Jul 08 3:51 PM
Hey Jerome - spot on in regards to removing sources of moisture like showers etc. But what about people breathing? Each person can expel over 4l per day.

If its not being removed from the home then moisture will stay there.

and if you homes damp its going to cost more to heat!

jiggles

3840 posts
Re: Heat Exchanger - misnomer 
Posted 10 Jul 08 1:46 PM
Interesting comments re counter flow and cross flow efficiencies...

Your comments have 'some' merit, however you have failed to note the difference between sensible and latent energy with regard it's recovery.

Crossflow heat exchangers are capable of "latent energy recovery", which occurs when moisture in the exhaust air condenses on the heat exchanger plates. As the moisture condenses, it gives up its energy (equal to the "latent heat of evaporation") to the plates of the exchanger, which is in turn transferred to the supply air flow through the heat exchanger plates.

Since the cross flow exchanger often recovers more than just the sensible energy (ie: latent) - It's efficiency increases! and efficiencies up to 95% with a cross flow exchanger are quite feasible.

Any attempt to disprove the above would be an attempt to disprove the fundamental laws of thermodynamics. I'd like to see that. Go ahead... Make my day!

3840 posts
Re: Pricing on HRV's... Investigate "Intelivent" 
Posted 10 Jul 08 5:20 PM
It seems as though Cleanaire is the only brand that uses a 100% Aluminium Heat Exchanger to transfer heat.

Lossnay's is paper and Intelivent's is plastic!!!

Counter current or not, I don't plan on spending my money on a cheap plastic fantastic. I doubt there's any plastics around that conducts heat better than aluminium.

 

Viewing 1 to 25 of 154 results

Next
Ecobob - eco friendly homes on Facebook