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Topic: Positive Money NZ

by Ecobob.co.nz 15 Oct 11, 35 replies : Last Post Sort by:
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305 posts
Positive Money NZ 
Posted 15 Oct 11 1:18 AM
Invitation to the launch of our campaign to transform the New Zealand banking system.

If we are serious about reducing the level of government and private debt in New Zealand then the Banking
System needs to be transformed. It is one where Einstein’s words ring true.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
The current system is a debt based one where privately owned overseas banks essentially create our money out of thin air and introduce it into the economy as debt. For a significant portion of our economy to grow – our level of indebtedness must grow. We are on a debt treadmill but we don’t need to pass on this flawed system to future generations.

http://www.positivemoney.org.nz/includes/download.aspx?ID=117919
Positive Money NZ


222 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 15 Oct 11 7:49 PM
Banks do not create money out of thin air.

The money they loan has come from an NZ or overseas depositor.

We have too much debt because we have loaned too much of other peoples money. Is it their fault?

222 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 15 Oct 11 7:51 PM
Edit: borrowed, not loaned.

58 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 16 Oct 11 6:46 AM
Hi LME, Banks do create money out of nothing - look up fractional reserve banking which is the system used almost globally and why we had to drop the gold standard.

222 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 16 Oct 11 4:41 PM
You are talking about the money supply which can expand or contract with changing market conditions.

It is a common misconception that the fractional reserve system allows banks to "create money" but if you examine what is happening a deposit at a bank can create a chain of loans and deposits which increases the supply of money but all these loans are balanced by deposits to the bank.


149 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 17 Oct 11 7:25 AM
I urge anyone interested in this to take the time to view..
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse
It's election time now. this stuff is VERY relevant to the 'promises' we all hear at these times.

149 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 17 Oct 11 7:26 AM
By the way...
Can someone tell me what 'growth' is?


222 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 17 Oct 11 12:14 PM
Wikipedia has a definition of economic growth as "the increasing capacity of the economy to satisfy the wants of the members of society". I have no problem with that as an ideal.

In practise it is measured as the increase in trade in goods and services but, it seems to me, this doesn't take into account the ability of society to become increasingly more efficient especially as we strive to move in this direction.

For example, if I buy and install an efficient light bulb, the cost I save in power bills is much more than the cost of the bulb. That act in itself then has a negative effect on economic growth though my "wants" for lighting have been met just the same.

Economists might argue that I will then spend the money saved elsewhere in the economy but not if I have an increasing mind to be frugal or conservative of resources. Perhaps the 20th century measure of growth might need adjusting for the 21st.


94 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 30 Oct 11 7:48 AM
Hi lastmanever,
you write"these loans are balanced by the deposits to the bank"

i agree with that but the balancing is not even...i.e 41 deposited equals $10 loaned under the 'standard" fractional reserve banking.

The problem, as I see it, is not so much that money is creaed out of debt and thin air, but rather NZ buys this money from overseas third parties and pays interest on it, when it could create that money itself and pay minimal or no interest. The USA did this prior to 1913 when the Fed reserve was created. prior to 1913 there was no personal income tax either as there was no need for it.

The biggest problem today is that the federal Reserve and IMF don't like any country which does not heavily indebt itself to them. Just ask Libya!, which had thefr own central bank, craeted their own money, refused to join the IMF and had interest- free housing and farm loans, free health and education, and a host of African nations ready to adopt the dinah as their own currency.

NZ joined the IMF in 1970 thanks to Muldoon. That began the chain of loans, a declining standard of living for Nzers, and quickly led to the IMF directive of selling off state owned assets in the 80's to current day. being IMf'd is a sure fire way to strip a nation of all its assets over time. NZ is a perfect example.

The IMF quickly learned that it could take over countries without going to war, providing they could bribe the leaders and sign them up for large loans.
read "confesions of an economic hitman" by John perkins, or watch him on you tube...zeitgeist addendum...also free on www.freedocumentaries.org

A short look at the USA's 'enemies" reveals a list of countries which refuse to be IMf'd. Libya, iraq, venezuala are such examples.

Bravo Iceland for standing up to the man, chucking out their govt, imprisoning the culptrits and refusing to pay banck loans which they meither wanted nor asked for.


94 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 30 Oct 11 7:51 AM
sorry should read for every "$1 deposited, $10 loaned."

Money has to be created out of thin air...start a new economy with $10 loaned at 10 percent interest, an extra $1 has to be introduced (created out of thin air) in order for the loan to be repaid.

94 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 30 Oct 11 8:03 AM
By the way, it is this topic which should be on top of the list for all the occupy demonstrations around the globe, and a key election isuue here in NZ..

being Imf'd is the core reason why our standard of living in NZ has dropped so far and why it takes both husband and wife to work in order to pay of a house, when it used to take just one. Do you think that the value of your house has gone up in value? wrong! it just takes more dollars of lesser value to buy the same asset. We have been suckered in to playing a stupid game that we can't win. It is slavery with invisible chains.

Paying a third party huge sums of compounding interest on loans created out of thin air, when countries should be doing this themselves and bypassing the middleman. the usa is one prime xample of a country going broke simply becauseit pays a private third party to print money. This is the greatest scam of all time.






491 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 30 Oct 11 9:01 AM
More than half of this Country will go out in sheep tradition and re-elect the smiling assassin. He will squeeze more out us to pay for tax cuts for the 1%

149 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 30 Oct 11 9:02 AM
Yes this should be at the top of the list of the 'occupy' demonstrations. That and population. Between population growth and $$$ growth we are screwed.
I asked what growth is above and thank you last man for your take on growth. In New Zealand since about 40+ years ago that capacity to satisfy the wants of people has been funded almost entirely by borrowing and sales of assets. That's not growth.
So to cover the ugly scab successive governments have put a sticking plaster over it called immigration. But thats not growth either is it? It certainly hasn't made me better off.
Im not a Green party hack but I do give them credit for this years logo...
"For a richer future"
The media are 100% guilty here, they just don't hold the blowtorch to the politicians who repeatedly talk up growth as the answer to all our dreams.
Bullshit!


94 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 30 Oct 11 10:15 AM
Yes, the 'growth" mentioned here is a great leap backwards for the people and more revenue for the globalistas and banksters.

The people of NZ lost out big time. Gee we can't even buy basic foods like butter and cheese today without paying exhorbitant prices..on the false pretext that we must pay overseas prices...That is a big fat lie.

You can tell when a politician has been IMf'd. Classic symptoms are 1.advocating asset sales to fix the economy. 2. extending the retirement age, 3. reducing health care.

All of the above is a fast track to absolute poverty and both parties are being directed by the IMF. Voting just encourages these sellouts.

We could take a leaf out of Ecuador's and Venezuala's book and just say" NO...we aren't taking this anymore" both countries have claimed back state- owned assets and Ecuador renegged on their debt.

This nonsense has to stop. The main objective of globalisation is total world dominance by a few who profit the most while the 99% starve to death. This will solve the other problem of" too many people on the planet"

Chavez is hated by the US govt because he refused to be corrupted and has kicked out global mining and oil corporates from Venezuala.

Ecuador is taking out a huge lawsuit against mining comapnies who wrecked their environment while plundering the resources.

We seriously have to look at changing the game. Globalisation is an abject failure for the people of the world.

Asset-backed currencies 9gold ,silver or otherwise) rather than debt based curencies have to be taken seriously.

The jig is up on the curent system of make believe. The current money system isnt real ...it is merely a belief. The same should apply to interest on that belief. Afterall, what is ten percent of nothing? Answer? nothing.

There are those who will do anything to keep the belief going, but more and more people are waking up to the fact that the Emperor has no clothes.

I agree that it is high time we held the media to acount for their complicity in this massive deception. Without media compliance this huge scam of raping NZ could not survive.

222 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 30 Oct 11 12:26 PM
nofear...you are wrong on this. For every dollar a bank loans out it has to have a dollar in deposits and thus pay the interest on that money (notwithstanding it's other assets and business).

If we were to create money out of nothing that is called printing money like Zimbabwe has been doing and that naturally creates inflation.

Another method is the Quantitative Easing that has been used by countries such as Britain and the USA recently. In this case the Reserve Banks buy bonds off the banks (with imaginary money) allowing the banks to have more liquidity to stimulate the economies. The difference here is the money creation is kept on the books and the bonds should be resold and the money taken out of the system when the economies recover.

94 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 30 Oct 11 3:39 PM
Hi lastmanever,
My understanding is this, and correct me if I am wrong. Building societies can only lend money on a one to one basis with deposits held., i.e they are not part of the fractional reserve banking method used by mainstream banks.

our mainstream banks on the other hand can loan 8-10 times their actual deposits held. If I am wrong then what is your description of fractional reserve banking, and are you saying that NZ does not play this game?

When I say that money is created out of thin air, it is actually backed by debt. It wasn't always this way. At one time money was backed by physical gold held, but this standard was dropped and now it is debt which backs the creation of money, which , if you follow the trail to its source, is literally created out of thin air, i.e not backed by any physical asset.

The merry go round which is the US dollar creation scheme/ scam at its source is simply printed money at best, but mostly it is simply numbers on a computer screen..created out of nothing. the only thing that can be called real is the interest payable on those computer generated numbers. As the video clip mentions, actual physical cash notes now represent about 2% of the money supply...the rest being digital.

lastmanever, I dont actually have a huge gripe about the debt- based monetary system. It is the INTEREST which is the killer and eventually brings all economies to their knees. Paying a private organsiation, i.e federal reserve..which is not federal but is private, and has no physical assets to back itself, to provide "money" at interest is ridiculous.

This parasitical practice has to stop. When a country prints its own money and funds projects through its own nation's wealth at low interest, real wealth and real growth can happen and the profits re-loaned back into that nation's economy, for further real growth. At present, all the interest paid goes out of the country at mafioso rates.

We know that the old system works as it has demonstrated in the past, and didnt require personal income tax. Those clever banksters finally bribed their way into the US system and began the big slide for the USA on Dec 23rd 1913, when most of the uncorrupted politicians had gone home for the holidays.

It is now claimed that 100% of personal income tax paid in the USA gose to the Federal Reserve just to meet the interest bill. It is claimed that soon it wont even be able to do that.



26 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 30 Oct 11 7:16 PM
It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

Henry Ford

....and most of the the occupy movement do not understand.....

222 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 30 Oct 11 7:41 PM
nofear.... here's a description of a type you see often to describe the banking system but I'll add my explanation.

Suppose I take $100 to the bank and deposit it. The bank is required to keep, say, $10 and can loan out the other $90 but they pay me interest on the whole $100. Suppose they loan it to Bill and Bill takes the money and buys a bike from Mike. Mike puts the $90 in the bank as a deposit and the bank can loan out $81 but has to pay Mike interest on the $90 etc etc. You see for every loan there is a depositor though the money supply has grown. Banks can also loan money to each other but it is still backed by depositors at some point.

If banks could create money out of thin air then they could loan out money for less than they borrowed it and still make a whooping profit (and we'd all be in the banking business).

The fractional reserve system is in fact only required up to a cut off point. (In NZ I think it's only for cheque accounts) After that they can loan what they like as long as they meet other criteria and the Reserve Bank uses other methods to control the money supply.




94 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 31 Oct 11 6:28 AM
Hi lastmanever,
thank you for your explanation. I agree that our NZ banks do not print money as such, but if you follow the trail to where their "money" comes from, it is still created out of thin air...i.e overseas third (private) party loans, not from within NZ.

By your description, if i understand it correctly, a $100 deposited in a bank account can be the basis for several banks to loan out many many times that amount. That is fractional reserve banking.

As for the interest that the banks have to pay, well often they dont have to at all with cheque account deposits, but I take your point.

The bottom line is that with an estimated 2-4% of the NZ money supply in actual physical notes, and when you couple that up with your example of farctional reserve banking ( loaning out many many times more than actual deposits on hand), it is easy to see how bank runs happen so quickly. Just a small shift in public confidence can obliterate the current money system.

I'll close this by stating that here in the South Island, if a person wants to withdraw $250,000 in cash from his own bank account, it will cost that person a bank fee in excess of $750 to bring that cash to you. This is an example of how silly this whole game has become. We can thank our personal willingnes for ATm cards and eftpos for this ridiculous and expensive scenario.

Most, if not all, banks in nz now no longer not hold cash overnight as they have no insurance to cover cash deposits.

one gets to see just how fragile this whole thing is. The bank money tap can run dry or be turned off in the blink of an eye.

Stashing cash under the bed is no longer such a stupid idea.

Mike Moloney on you tube provides an easy to understand demonstration. of the merry go round of US govt/ fed reserve money creation. It looks ridiculous because it is.

No matter how we cut it, our money is still created out of debt, backed by nothing except debt, and literally printed up or punched into a computer.

How much does that cost to do?


94 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 31 Oct 11 6:36 AM
Great to see you here Zimmerer. I echo those sentiments . Henry Ford, Thomas Jefferson, Abe Lincoln and JFK saw it for what it really is.

The current occupy movement is ripe for a hijacking by the powers that be, because it does not have a clear objective or grievance, and most of its supporters are yet to "get it"

"dissent is the highest form of patriotism"...Thomas jefferson

222 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 31 Oct 11 8:13 AM
nofear...I'll make this my last post on this thread but, fundamentally, I don't see any great issue with the way the banking system works. Some might say debt is one of the greatest inventions, some might see it as a great conspiracy.

I would argue that the problems in the banking system of recent times come down to the age old issues of trust, ethics, accountability and lack of regulatory oversight. NZ finance companies run like the director's personal accounts (and it's good to see many of them up before the courts at the moment), American banks making massive levels of low quality loans and moving the debt on around the world (an indictment of poor regulatory oversight given the Savings and Loans crisis that went before it), and latterly, the exposure of the growing levels of debt to countries that can't produce the productivity to repay it.

Perhaps the real problem is with our political systems that reward political parties that promise to maintain our standards of living based on debt (that we can't afford). As Maggie Thatcher said "the only problem with socialism is you run out of other people's money"and...couldn't resist that one.

94 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 31 Oct 11 4:23 PM
Thanks lastmanever for your input. You write..

"Perhaps the real problem is with our political systems that reward political parties that promise to maintain our standards of living based on debt (that we can't afford)"

I'd say that the biggest debt NZ can't afford is the previous loans and interest that just keeps on compounding, while at the same time, revenue streams that are state-owned assets, are taken away from us. It is a double whammy with no positive outcome for the common man.

The selling off of state-owned assets is in itself a double whammy in that 1. we lose the asset, and 2. we pay more for the services that those assets provided..electricity is but one example...

This downhill slide began in 1970 and look where we are now in just forty short years. the 'level playing field" that politicians talked of ,never was and never will be. What sheep we are!

Vote left or right it matters not..puppet 1 or puppet 2. It is the same game controlled by the same players and while NZ is in debt all power is held by the money supplier. That is until enough sheeple wake up and learn to say NO.

26 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 31 Oct 11 6:19 PM
@ lme.
pitty that you want post anymore.... I think that is our (society) problem. as soon as someone ..dissent.. and/or a deeper knowledge is required people walk away and say: " I have enough..."
but just because the mainstream (media) tells us one thing doesn't mean it is true.
Banks (on top the Fed and imf) is one problem industrial and pharmaceutical control (or monopoly) an other. than we have military industry and the oil industry and you know what..... they are best friends.
In New zealand we have Fronterra and Fletchers just to name two. Both of them not Kiwi owned. but they making the calls.
Get real the politics doesn't regulate the market but the other way around.
What bugs me most though is the fact that we (common people/taxpayer) never will find common ground to change these things. (maybe because everyone put himself first...?) but than we are just following our "role models" politics/banks/industry

@ no fear ...seems we are on the same page...

26 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 31 Oct 11 6:20 PM
@ lme.
pitty that you want post anymore.... I think that is our (society) problem. as soon as someone ..dissent.. and/or a deeper knowledge is required people walk away and say: " I have enough..."
but just because the mainstream (media) tells us one thing doesn't mean it is true.
Banks (on top the Fed and imf) is one problem industrial and pharmaceutical control (or monopoly) an other. than we have military industry and the oil industry and you know what..... they are best friends.
In New zealand we have Fronterra and Fletchers just to name two. Both of them not Kiwi owned. but they making the calls.
Get real the politics doesn't regulate the market but the other way around.
What bugs me most though is the fact that we (common people/taxpayer) never will find common ground to change these things. (maybe because everyone put himself first...?) but than we are just following our "role models" politics/banks/industry

@ no fear ...seems we are on the same page...

94 posts
Re: Positive Money NZ 
Posted 31 Oct 11 7:51 PM
Hi Z, governments have been referred to as corpgovt, because, as you rightly point out, it is the corporates which drive the govts, not the other way around.

I'll go one step further and state that it is the banksters which drive and support the corporates at the highest level.

What chance do we have against this massive machine? Lots actually. we just have to change our thinking and realise that they need us more than we need them and that we have the collective power to render them powerless. This especially goes for politicians and govts .

Politicians and public servants are easy., they are largely ego driven. Deny their ego by not giving them any attention or support, and they are rendered powerless.

I note today that Argentina is doing whatever it can to stop an outflow of money out of their country. they ae demanding that their foreign corporations which are mining and drilling etc, leave money in Argentina.

 

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