Topic: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation

Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Hi,

I looked around at insulation and came to the conclusion that Sprayed Polyurethane Foam would give me the best level of thermal insulation and sound deadening. So I bought a machine from the US and have arranged to purchase the foam locally in NZ.
Great I here you say, butr now I think the council are going to be difficult about it! Because it is not pink bats they seem lost and I think they will reject the foam. Does anyone know of a suitably qualified engineer who can certify the foam and it's installation?

If you have had this foam installed in your home how did you get on with the council?

It seems that if you want to build better and smaerter the councils go out of there way to stop you!

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Cheers

Mark

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

i just submitted my plans recently for consent,and i did my own h1 calculations using this online calculator.http://www.design-navigator.co.nz/CRC.php
the guy who has made it needs a medal.on the left down the bottom is ratings for generic building products,polyurathane included.id just use this rating,submit it to the council,and see how you go.
i cant see why they would stop you,if you can give it an r rating

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

It seems unless it has a Branz approval it is no good!!

I'm not sure if I can convince them it's not going to ruim the house!!

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Hi Mark,
Good luck with your venture. If the company that you are purchasing your product from has any international testing data or proof that it can meet standards in a developed nation somewhere you could use those and engage somebody like Albrecht Stoeklein (unsure on spelling) who is behind Design Navigator to translate it into a document that local councils can understand.

Also Colin Prouse at BEAL in Wellington has a new insulation testing machine and could test samples to prove whether actual R values meet claimed values.

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

I have documentation from the manufacturer which details all the the properties and the R valuse. I don't think hat is going to be the issue. It is more the installation of the product they seem interested in. I am going to remove all the interior gib from the outside walls and spray it in! I will spray it onto the underside of the floor. So there will be no voids etc. But they are very concerned that the product will hold water of cause some sort of problem!! Only Branz Certification and associated installation guide seems to matter to them!

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

This website is an excellent source of information on polyurethane foam

http://sprayfoamsucks.com/

Good Luck with your venture!!!

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

An industry this large is bound to have the odd detractor! But it seems to me there are thousands and thousands of people out there who are more than happy with the product! It is used worldwide and I have only ever heard good things. Looks to me like this websuite is out to make a mountain out of a mole hill!

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Complaining that a council has asked to see an installation guide sounds like making a mountain out of a mole hill. And people wonder why we had a leaking building crisis. Obviously an installation guide sounds like overkill to you because you will have little to no financial liability if you get it wrong - you can simply spray-and-walk-away. The same applies to one-man-bands doing H1 calculations and one-man + technician outfits doing product assessments. I laughed at the recent use on this forum of the term 'Team' when describing the latter - typical architect spin.

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Wow you sound like an angry person! I have a real vested interest in seeing this work, far from walking away I plan to live in the property (it is our family home) for at least the next 10 years! Why would I pay so much more for the product if I was not planning to stick around! I could use pink bats put up with poor insulation and poor noise control and save myself a fortune. This product has been used world wide on premium builds(it is more expensive), it has University papers written about how good it is and how it's perfromance in the real world is far supperior to what even the R values state.

I posted on this website looking for help not abuse!

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

dont get put off mark. for a small forum,this place has more trolls than norway. it seems that almost everyone has a hidden agenda,a conspiracy theory or
anger issues. if you cut thru it all theres the odd genuine bit of info in here.

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

case - thanks for the info on polyurethane foam - very helpful

mark - no I'm not angry - just forever amused by this forum.

I post a link and you respond immediately after that you have only ever heard good things. Perhaps you read the link title and did not actually look at the website, thereby not hearing the bad things. You may not agree with it but you must admit that you have now heard some bad things.

You say I was abusive and yet you say that if you had installed pink bats (sic) you would have done it poorly. That is abusive of your own abilities at installing insulation. I have to assume that's what you meant because surely you weren't intending it as an abusive statement about PINK BATTS. They have an R2.8 wall insulation products.

There was problems in the past in NZ with polyurethane foam damaging the cladding and plasterboard - too much pressure. Liquids can permanently damage the structural strength of plasterboard and that can be very important if a wall relies on it for bracing. Yes I do appreciate that you intend to remove the linings but my point is that installation is often more important that the material. Just because you were not aware of it doesn't mean that there are only 'good things'. Since you weren't aware of the SprayFoamSucks website you mustn't have googled 'Polyurethane Foam' in the past few months. Sometimes you need to search a bit deeper to get the other side to the story.

If and when you sell you house in 10 years time that the legal responsibility for the work you carry out will rest with the engineer who provides your producer statement and the council who accepts it. If you get your lawyer to draw up a contract making you responsible to future owners then the council will accept it and you will be taking responsibility. I did not say you would walk away - I said you CAN walk away, meaning that you can transfer responsibility onto someone else.

I repeat - not angry -just amused and familiar with the reasons why councils ask questions and why they expect documented answers.

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

mark - What have you learnt so far?....

You post that you have imported a machine so why don't you use one of the existing installers?
Perhaps you have needs beyond your own home...

Reply to your first post:
"Do an H1 calc yourself using the DN website" - NOT REQUIRED as it’s a retrofit & you could have used the BRANZ insulation book
"You only need an r rating" - NOT CORRECT

Your reply:
"Needs BRANZ approval" - Most building products do not have BRANZ appraisals
I may be wrong but I'm guessing that you were aware of this websites reputation before posting

Second reply to your post:
"Good luck with your venture"- perhaps he thinks that you intend to insulate more than your own house
"Any international testing.....a developed nation somewhere" - WHAT'S THAT ABOUT????
"Pay some guy to do the H1 calc" - NOT NEEDED as it’s a retrofit and anyway he doesn't know how to spell his name
"Pay some guy to do a measurement" - NOT NEEDED as it’s a retrofit

Your reply:
"You don't think R-value is important" - CORRECT as it’s a retrofit
"The installation is more important" - CORRECT as it’s a retrofit, look at the DBH website to find out what’s needed if the council hasn’t already explained it to you.
"They seem......they are concerned..." - so they want to know how it will perform in a NZ house and how you will modify the installation to suit a retrofit situation with NZ timber, aged NZ building paper, and no strand-board etc. It’s not rocket science but it is necessary
"Only Branz Certification and associated installation guide" - You can write you own installation guide and it doesn't need certification anyway

My reply with some information that a consulting engineer and the council is likely to read and ask questions about:
Perhaps you are the angry one because the website raises questions that you can't answer

Your reply:
"I plan to live in the property..."
I could be wrong but that sounds like landlord or doer-upper speak so perhaps you have other houses to insulate given that the government is subsidising landlords to insulate and you purchased a machine.
"...premium builds" - That’s industry jargon so perhaps you are builder or in the trade and so not surprising that you knew that you didn't need to meet H1

Fourth reply to your post:
"website has bits of useful info in amongst the chaff and mutual back slapping"- off topic and your request for the name of a consulting engineer has still not been answered
Yes the poster is correct about the shortcomings of the regular posters. Most of the forum is from a few regular posters so if there is only bits of info then who should he blame?

Personally I blame the hypocrites like the regular poster who replied to a post by a lady who was asking advice about retrofitting insulation. Given that the reply poster in question often criticises other posters for going off topic and pushing their own commercial barrows it was ironic and pathetic that his helpful advice was to suggest rebuilding the walls with a construction systems for which he has a 10% shareholding and which he conveniently forgot to mention in conjunction with his less than helpful advice. I don’t need to mention his profession since the facts speak for themselves and his on-going snide remarks about a particular research organization only reinforces the fact that he has a chip on his shoulder. His attitude encourages regular posters like the one that rants on about European products (German in particular) being superior to everything in NZ and don’t need to be assessed or tested for local conditions or local manufacturing quality (particularly his favourite windows and magic wrap).

Polyurethane is not a product – it is a material. Installation creates the product and it is not by default the same as what was tested by someone in a developed nation somewhere. Do your research – good and bad or call the professionals. If you want to do a job normally done by a professional (i.e. someone getting paid to do it) then expect to

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

You are really full of yourself aren't you?

I own 1 house. The house I live in, the house my family live in and the house we are trying to improve! I have no hidden agenda. I have done lots of reaserch. I am going to be spraying onto 7mm ply which I am installing all round the building to improve the bracing way beyond requirements, I'm installing UPVC windows, recladding re roofing. Basically trying to put the best house together that I can raise my family in!

Again I approached this website looking for help. If you can help me with recognised published installation guides or details of how it has been installed and approved by other people and there experience in NZ then great.

If not please spare us all and don't post your long winded tyrades. I'm not interested!

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Hello Mark,

A few comments from a person who hopes he will not be considered either hypocritical or angry.

25 years ago I made composite polyurethane core panels for my garage and when machining, experienced sever eye irritation. I promptly obtained a full ventilated sealed head mask and frequent washed my overalls but still was affected by the very fine dust that hung about for some time.

Isocyanides were given off during foaming and to a lesser extent when machining (cutting, shaping) and to a minor extent, even some time later when the closed cells were ruptured from natural movement of shear at the bond line. Isocyanides are considered to be carcinogenic and asthma triggers.

I presume you have licensed with a 6.1B certificate in order to legally obtain your raw ingredients, if not, I know of contacts in Auckland that can assist. Otherwise, contact EPA for those in your area.

If you are certified to apply, and do not require a building permit, I question why Council Inspectors are involved anyway?

Rex

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Cheers for that Rex.

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Hey spray&walkaway...are you suggesting that if products had manuals and come from entities with good covenants that there would have been no leaking building crisis...and are you also suggesting that one-man + technician should not do product assessments?

Surely not...ye of short memory should investigate the introduction of James Hardie Harditex and the Appraisals by BRANZ ...

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

hello there mark i Know that the BCA's can be but they are at the end of the day looking after your nd your familys interests...


Anyway all the BCA'S require is that you show tham how you are going to do it with techincal data like this... http://www.insulbarrier.com.au/pdfs/Builders/Sealection500%20subfloor%20light%20clad%20metal.pdf

there are 2 products 1 open-cell and the other closed-cell
open in my view would only be able to be used in a case where you have a damp proof building wrap like tekton building wrap but you would have to take off the outside walls to do this and add a cavity so that the building can breath.

So you would have to use the more expensive closed cell product as it is water proof and can be applied straight to bare timber steel etc but i would still apply a building wrap just the same so it can still breath .

I am trying to work out with the DBH and there guys to try and get it certified etc to be used in new zealand but no one has yet to sort this info yet ...

I would be inerested how you got along with your spray foam etc and would be interested where you are in new zealand

Good luck I'll help as much as i can with what i know

oh yeah and make sure you wear FULL body overalls and full face mask and dont go into the house till at lease 48 hours to let the fumes go away (that means leaving the house doors and window open)
and make sure its a true 1:1 mix and that the hoses are at the right temp etc



Regards
Ray

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Mark, how are you getting on with your project? Would it be possible to speak with you about your experience so far?

Paul

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Hi,

email me at nzwwater@yahoo.co.uk. If your genuine (there are some fruit cakes on this site) I send you a contact number.

Cheers

Mark

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Yahoo.co.uk returns my email to you, no such address it says? Very keen to speak with you.

Paul

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Ring him at IRD

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Hi Mark,
I too am very interested in how you are getting along with your plan. I have just moved into a new home (built '93) and the existing pink batts insulation is pretty dismal to say the least. There are massive patches missing on the verticals of the roof / attic interior and some areas (harder to reach) that were missed entirely.

In concept, the spray on foam seems like the perfect insulation material. Keen to discuss and understand why you decided to DIY. Admittedly, I am unable to find anyone who could be considered a professional / licensed installer...

Kind Regards
Clayton

Re: Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation 

Drop me an email to nzwwater@yahoo.co.nz and I'll flick you a phone number!