Topic: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV

Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

I am looking at installing a new solar water heating system on Auckland's North Shore. The house I am buying has a very old low pressure system and the tank needs replacing, so I thought I would go for SWH at the same time. I need a building consent issued in advance to do it properly and meet the EECA grant requirements.

Auckland Council tell me I can expect to pay around $1000 in building consent fees - $745 to lodge the application and at least two inspections at $115 each. But if I just replace the tank, I don't need a consent at all.

The fees seem extortionate and are frankly a major disincentive. I guess the EECA grant might just about cover it, provided I buy a system that qualifies for maximum funding.

As far as I can tell, photo-voltaic systems do not require consent (?) and would seem on the face of it to offer a less complex installation (?).

In this case, why wouldn't I just replace the tank with a modern one and wait a few years for PV costs to get down to low enough levels to heat the water electrically from PV? And/or hope for sanity to return to the fees?

Apologies if this has been asked before. I have done a fair bit of research on this forum but cannot find an answer. Thanks.

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Lots of questions.

In general fitting a new cylinder in the same place means you don't need a consent.
Obviously if you want to get a solar subsidy you have to get a consent.
PV is not the way to go for water heating - the returns simply don't work - perhaps they will in the future.

An alternative to consider is a hot water heat pump. No consents required, can save as much money as a solar system - and can be fitted to any cylinder.

JK

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Hi NotMeGuy

Questions for you:
Why does the tank need replacing? Is it a ceramic tank (standard these days - not that great for longivity) or is it better - like an old fashioned copper tank!!! (If you are worried about heat loss - you can wrap a cylinder blanket around it).

What is your roof angle, and what are the roof directions? (And yardage)

Are you intending to go high pressure or stay at low (uses much less water)? What size tank now and proposed - 180litre or higher?

Seeker

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Thank for your replies. Re-reading my OP, I can see my confusion about choosing a solution coming through loud and clear!

Some answers would be easier to give if we were in the house, but we are 6 weeks away from taking possession. We have asked for permission to have a couple of companies around to quote soon (2 others have priced off the plans), so that we can get the consent process underway (4 weeks), but have not heard back yet.

Before buying we had a building inspection done and the inspector believed that the old cylinder (exterior with some shelter from ground floor garage) was to blame for the extremely low HW pressure and suggested it would need replacement soon. We have close-coupled SWH (2 flat panels, 330 litre) on our current house and my first thought was to fit a full system on the new one ASAP so we could actually have showers that work (for 2 adults & 2 teenagers).

My intention was to go high pressure and use fittings and discipline to contain water usage. That would also make open loop systems an option, I believe. But I'm open to low or mid pressure if showers can be made satisfactory.

We have a large stretch of NE facing roof (side of house ~ 45sqm) and sufficient NW facing roof (front ~ 17sqm) to accommodate collectors. I don't mind them being visible and believe NW would likely be better. Pitch is around 16 degrees, so ~ 20 degree frames seem a good idea for the latitude. Accommodation is first floor and we have locations on both pitches within 5 metres of kitchen and bathroom (adjacent to each other). The current tank is under the kitchen and I have asked all companies to price for at least a 270 litre capacity unless good reason not to.

Re heat pumps: Auckland Council does require building consent for them, technically. I was wondering about PV with one, but since we're coastal I have my doubts about HP longevity.

TBH, I do wonder if I am rushing it in trying to get quotes in, select a system, get consent and have it all fitted in week 1 of ownership. So I'm wondering about booking a plumber to sort the pressure short term (e.g. replace the tank with a second hand one and/or fit a shower pump, or something else) and then look to recoup what I can of that outlay when we get a solar system fitted. We won't get much benefit from SWH for a couple of months after moving in, anyway, and we may get a better feel for our needs in that time.

I appreciate your input, thanks.

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

I think I would be inclined to agree that you would get a better feel for your needs after being in the house a couple of months. So my suggestion is to hold off until then.

One final question: are you thinking to renovate the house at anytime soon-ish after you take possession? You do not want 2 sets of plumbing labour costs which can be avoided if you do some forward planning.

Seeker

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

I agree with Seeker, hold off rather than rush in.

No doubt the present cylinder is copper, sounds like the inspector is arse covering - it probably won't need changing for a long time.

A boost pump can be a cheap way of alleviating the problem.

More than likely you would need a larger cylinder for solar, plus valves and consents etc etc.

With an outdoor cylinder you would not need a consent for a hot water heat pump, supply and fit should be under $4000.

You probably don't have room.......
For your information we supply a 300 litre stainless steel cylinder with heat pump on top (similar to Rheem) for $4400. 580mm x 1800mm.

JK

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Thanks for your feedback. Yes, I think I'll draw breath and stop trying to force the pace. This will be a long term investment, so a few months' delay is probably not a big issue, especially if we make the current system more usable!

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

maybe you would like to peruse this website:
http://aucklandsolar.co.nz/process/
Its a council backed turn key solution with expedited consent process.

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Also I thought consent was cheaper than that?

"How much does a building consent cost?
Applications for the installation of a solar water or heat pump water-heating device are processed as a minor consent, regardless of project value, for a subsidised fee of $205 (including the cost of one inspection). Additional charges may apply if more information is required during processing or further inspections needed."
http://tinyurl.com/6syxkxf

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

That fees document is a great link, thanks! I have saved a copy to my local machine, in case it gets moved.

The odd thing is that searching their website both locally and through Google did not turn that up, even though it has all the search terms I used within the PDF (and maybe that is the problem). That search failure is why I rang the council, twice, (I spoke to two different people at Takapuna) and they independently gave me the fees that I reported above.

What is your experience of Auckland Solar?

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

My situation is I am building a house (also on the north shore) and am trying to see if we can afford solar hot water - if not, we will put in a solar ready system and wait (for PV's to come down in price??)

The Auckland Solar sheme I came across was launched this week, the actual know-how behind the scheme is Solar Group http://www.slg.co.nz
I was hoping we would see heavily subsidised packages, but whilst the scheme has some benefits (warranties, financing etc) I dont think there is discount on the actual units.

You can call them up and speak to Yariv to get more info, he is quite knowledgable

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Hi MagicHair

My suggestion to you also is hold off. You don't need a solar ready cylinder for PVs and you will be paying a premium for what is on the market at the moment which is not fit for purpose for solar PV.

But since you have to have a cylinder because you are building, I would suggest a stainless steel high quality cylinder with a high temperature rating (85 deg C minimum), and if it is 250 litre or larger, then 2 electric elements - one near the top 1/3 of the tank, and one at the bottom. When you get it wired up, just wire up the bottom element for the time being (it has to be swapped to the top later - so try and make it accessible).

Seeker

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

I've just had a thought.
As said above we do a 300 litre stainless cylinder with heat pump on top for $4400.
We could also supply it complete with an integrated solar controller - this has a sensor for a solar system and the wiring for a solar pump - with a large range of options for solar/heat pump/element control (for the 60 degree requirements).
Worth consideration.

JK

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Cheers Seeker,

Why would current solar ready cylinders not be fit for purpose?

I was thinking of one of the 300l Greenglo max cylinders:
http://www.greenglo.co.nz/range.html

There are two options - single or double coil.. are you saying the double coil would be better? (I have been advised otherwise)

ta

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

I like the Greenglo cylinder - I just wish it could be more affordable.

You don't need ANY coils for solar PV - but the coils are necessary for solar thermal collectors (water circulation to the roof to get heated).

"Solar Group" will be the best people to say what the Greenglo cylinders they supply can and can't do.

I was talking about electric elements, not water coils.

The reason for 2 electric elements is so that when the bottom element is connected to PV, and you don't get good sun that day, the top element is energized by grid power to heat a small volume of water (say 80 litres in a 250 litre tank) to satisfy household needs until the bottom element starts heating again the next time the sun is out. It basically means using as little amount of grid power as possible, and the maximum amount of solar PV power.

Does that make sense?

Seeker

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

PV for heating water? Doesn't make economic sense, a solar system is far superior.

Also using coils for a solar system is not the best way, a direct system is more efficient and generally recommended. Which means either a standard copper or stainless cylinder can be used.

300 litre is a strange size - 615mm diameter often won't fit.

JK

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Why do you think coils are not recommended ? By whom?
Worldwide coil HWC solar systems are regarded as state of the art. For the reason of frost protection and bacteria which can easily build up over a number of cloudy days????

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Hi JK

I guess different suppliers have different views on coils - my own stainless steel 450 litre + evac tube system uses coils for particular reasons which are irrelevant to the discussion of solar PV.

The system I run has cylinder water circulated to the roof, as well as cylinder water circulating in a wetback, and coil water being used at the taps (a thermal store system).

Seeker

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Coil water used at the taps is probably the very best solution and very common in Europe too...

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Cylinder coils add complications and cost, plus they reduce efficiency.
Evacuated tubes have very little water öutside the building and for all practical purposes use no energy for frost protection.
Using a coil for solar requires anti freeze and some way of keeping the pressure up (all of which has to withstand boiling water). There is loss of efficiency simply because a heat exchanger is involved.

Thermal store cylinders, where the hot water to the tap is heated as it goes through a coil in a cylinder are generally speaking very poor. Very inefficient, very low hot water availability, expensive to run. Bottled gas is preferable.
The cylinder has to be maintained at high temperatures, once it's down to 45 degrees you now have lukewarm water - great.

The best hot water solution for most people is a mains pressure stainless cylinder, evacuated tube solar with heat pump back up. To cut costs don't fit the solar.

JK

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

In Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Holland, Scandinavia and other places the coil solutions are standard and legal requirements. Are you saying that the World leaders in efficient heating technology are all wrong ???

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes.
Using a coil inside a cylinder to provide a form of instant water heating is generally a very poor idea. I'll take your word that this a preferred method in Europe - it certainly isn't in the UK.
New Zealand is different to Europe in two ways, warmer winter days and relatively cheaper electricity compared to gas. Also NZ has one of the highest proportions of electrically heated hot water cylinders in the world.

Solar can work well in NZ, fitted to any copper or stainless cylinder. An air sourced heat pump can be a better solution - both is ideal - and far better than any indirect system with a coil.

Efficient heating technology? I would suggest an NZ house using an air sourced heat pump run on renewable electricity to heat the whole concrete floor is world beating.....for NZ.

JK

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

I think I was mistaken during my earlier posts - appologies. I thought PVs were the collectors on the roof... but I think PV means electricity generation right?

I was wanting to future proof myself for future solar collectors (not electricity generation) so I take it the Greenglo would be fine (with one or two coils?)

Re: Building Consent Costs, SWH and PV 

I understand that you push your product but more dependance on the power companies is a no no for me.
The UK these days is specialized in financial gambling and speculation and you will not find latest know how in heating technology there.