Topic: Downlights/insulation

Re: Downlights/insulation 

To the LED and Halogen manufacturers/suppliers:

Why do you not publish your test reports for IC and CA135 claims? You all claim to be rated but I have not seen one single test report.
Unfortunately you do not need to have lights tested by a lab to claim compliance.

Re: Downlights/insulation 

Some IC rated down lights have certified test reports, like the Halers EVOLED contact; steve@lpled.co.nz
for a copy of report!

Re: Downlights/insulation 

Hello Led Wizard,

I contacted Steve and got the test report for the Evoled so thanks for the contact.

I was a little dissapointed to find the test was to the old standards in 2010 and not the new standards.

Steve from Lighting Pacific (evoled) called me and we discussed it. He said the old standards are fine and that there is little difference to the new standards.

I am still waiting to see a report from any manufacturer that passes the current standards.

Are there any other forums on LED lighting?

Re: Downlights/insulation 

Hi led guru,
You mentioned in your reply that the old standard is fine?
not quite the case!
I was referring to the old FHat standard and the new IC standard, the only difference is the ambient temperature the fixture is tested at eg; 22.5 deg for FHat, and 25deg for IC, basically the same test.
However despite complying with the IC requirements of the new standard the critical issue facing LED down lights is the junction temperatures of the installed LED chips in an IC environment, unless jT is known and tested most LED down lights will fail prematurely.
All Evoled down lights have been tested up to 50 C ambient in IC environment and junction temperatures are well within Philips jT operation limits.
Be aware! NOT all LED chips are created equal!!!

It is not a requirement to have certified test reports for down lights imported or manufactured in NZ, it is not mandatory, however most reputable suppliers will have them.
Its quite simple!! if you don't get the right answers DON'T use the product. This is the only protection you have.

Referencing back to the down light standard ASNZS 60598.2.2 introduced in May this year, this is unsubstantial different from NZCP54
See quick reference guide attached.

Re: Downlights/insulation 

Re: Downlights/insulation 

Re: Downlights/insulation 

LED testing 

I will have to do a bit of research into this as I obviously do not know enough about the testing to comment further.
If the testing was the same, why would they change the standards?

Re: LED testing 

Hi LED guru,
I feel you are getting confused between the new standard and some of the tests we do to comply with the standard!
The new standard was implemented because of the warm up NZ campaign but mostly because we cut large holes in insulating batts when we install down lights as per NZCP54 (old standard).
The new standard requires down lights to be installed with insulation over them(IC) or abutted (CA80) and (CA135) and not exceeding certain temperatures when operating, which is 90deg C for IC and CA80 rated fixtures, and 135deg C for CA135 rated fixtures.
How we test the down lights so they don't exceed these limits has basically stayed the same.

The new and old standard are vastly different with regard to how we install down lights.
But the tests to determine compliance are basically the same.

Hope that makes sense!
For your info I was a member of the standards committee which developed the new standards.
If you require further info I am happy to help anyone with this, please call on 080070 72 72 as for Steve.

Re: LED testing 

The Halers Evoled is the first set of Led downlights I've found that tick all the boxes for me.....warm colour option, IC rating, narrowish angle spot, dimming capability leading and trailing. Expensive though but I guess the prices will drop.

Led guru, there is a long led thread running on Geekzone with a description of the ratings on this page:

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=141&topicid=89565&page_no=19

Re: LED testing 

Re: Downlights/insulation 

Hi Ledguru,



The different in testing between fhat and the new IC testing is as follows:



- Fhat testing only had the insulation over the top of the light hence the heat sink on the rear of an led light works quite well.

- IC testing requires that the light is completely surrounded and covered so all surfaces are touching insulation (this simulates a worst case installation). This means heat sinks are really not working at all well and the operating temperature will rise accordingly. Maximum temperature is 80 degree C.



Cheers.

Re: Downlights/insulation 

Hi Ledguru,



The different in testing between fhat and the new IC testing is as follows:



- Fhat testing only had the insulation over the top of the light hence the heat sink on the rear of an led light works quite well.

- IC testing requires that the light is completely surrounded and covered so all surfaces are touching insulation (this simulates a worst case installation). This means heat sinks are really not working at all well and the operating temperature will rise accordingly. Maximum temperature is 80 degree C.



Cheers.

Re: Downlights/insulation 

There seems to be a lot of forward and backward discussions about down lights and insulation.
Well I think if one needs to have downlights, how about a propper solution?.
From top to bottom:
Ceiling/attic floor structure with the insulation, then the vapour barrier/ membrane, ceiling battens 100 mm suspended, then the actual ceiling with the holes for the down lights, and a piece of fire proof plasterboard above each light.
That how we did it more than 20 years ago.
If the budget does not allow for a safe solution without shortcuts it is safer to use recessed down lights at all.

Re: Downlights/insulation 

Boxing them in or removing is the ideal solution for existing houses though skillions do present a problem as they are often also a low ceiling.

I must admit some skepticism about the impact of downlights as I have never observed any noticeable change to heating characteristics without them, whereas when closing curtains the temperature, at the same heating rate, can change by 2-3 degrees.

The Consumer testing recently reported one downlight to cause a minimum 25% change in heating characteristics of a room.

Re: Downlights/insulation 

Once we rented a house with down lights which were open to the roof space and every time it was windy we could see some shiny dust coming down from the insulation.
This house was built in the early 2000's and I asked myself how ignorant or stupid one must be to design, specify or apply such building methods????